Value Driven Data Science: Boost your impact. Earn what you’re worth. Rewrite your career algorithm.

00:00:00 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Hello and welcome to value driven data science brought to you by Genevieve Hayes Consulting. I'm your host, doctor Genevieve Hayes and today I'm joined by guest Joel Robin Stein. Talk about finding and retaining the best data talent. Joel. Welcome to the show.
00:00:18 Joel Robinstein
Thanks very much for having me.
00:00:19 Joel Robinstein
On I'm happy to be here.
00:00:21 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Thank you for coming on.
00:00:23 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Joel is the head of client services and operations at Precision Sourcing Australia, where he specialises in data recruitment. And he's also the Co host of the podcast keeping up with data.
00:00:37 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Jales spent over 12 years working in the data space, which means he's had the opportunity to witness first hand the changes that have occurred in this space. With the explosive growth of data science.
00:00:50 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And the impacts those changes have had on talent acquisition.
00:00:55 Dr Genevieve Hayes
But before we get into it, Joel.
00:00:59 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Back when you are getting started as a recruiter, data science didn't really exist outside of Silicon Valley and data analyst roles were few and far between.
00:01:12 Dr Genevieve Hayes
What led you to decide to specialise in recruiting in this space?
00:01:16 Joel Robinstein
It's a good question, and it's probably one I've answered a million times in interviewing people at our business, but it may be an answer that a lot of data scientists and and and data officials don't know. 99% of recruiters fell into.
00:01:31 Joel Robinstein
Recruitment and no one knows what recruitment is. No one studies at university. It is dumb.
00:01:38 Joel Robinstein
Not something that you really become aware of until you you.
00:01:41 Joel Robinstein
Go into.
00:01:41 Joel Robinstein
The into the business world. So I I was just lucky that I did fall into it when I moved to Australia 12 years ago.
00:01:48 Joel Robinstein
I I had no aspirations to be a recruiter until I found that it was a job that you could a get started in quickly and and B was a.
00:01:58 Joel Robinstein
A job that would help me stay in Australia in short.
00:02:00 Joel Robinstein
Which is a lot of the reasons why.
00:02:02 Joel Robinstein
And we get asked as recruiters why so many recruiters, English or Irish? UM, the simple fact of the matter was back then. You could get a visa without.
00:02:10 Joel Robinstein
Any experience in it? It it's just.
00:02:12 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, in terms of data itself, I'll apologise. I'll keep calling it data while you're calling it data, but.
00:02:19 Joel Robinstein
It was a bit of luck joint precision sourcing. I joined with three other people. There were four desks available at the time in terms of technical areas, and the others were testing project management and and business analysis, and I was lucky enough to be plonked on the data desk. And as you said back then it was.
00:02:38 Joel Robinstein
Just known as data, a bit of by our data science wasn't even a word that or Fraser anyone would know about, so I was very lucky that I was put into that desk because it was exactly the right time in 2010 and then, as you said already over the last 12 years. It's it's just gone. Great guns so.
00:02:58 Joel Robinstein
Very lucky to fall into it and very lucky to land in the right desk.
00:03:02 Dr Genevieve Hayes
It's I'm guessing that when you first started, there's no way you could possibly have imagined it becoming ever as big as it is now.
00:03:09 Joel Robinstein
Oh God, no, it was a.
00:03:11 Joel Robinstein
Small desk in the corner of the agency is probably the best way of describing it, but I mean even within a couple of years we quickly started realising that we would have to split the desk out into.
00:03:22 Joel Robinstein
More specialised areas where where we sit now 12 years later is.
00:03:26 Joel Robinstein
Seven different specialised areas within recruitment. In our team you know where someone is specifically looking after data science or someone is specifically looking after data engineering, whereas back then it was just all of data and then the first split that we made was around the end of 2011 when we split analytics and BI.
00:03:45 Joel Robinstein
It was probably the easiest way of calling it be hiding the back end and analytics being the front end.
00:03:50 Dr Genevieve Hayes
So what what? What year did you say that was again?
00:03:53 Joel Robinstein
That was 2011 AM just towards the end of it. Uh, my remember colleague of mine called Michael at the time joined and.
00:04:00 Joel Robinstein
I just said I can't fill one minute, a risk analyst or quant risk or an econometrics roll, and then the next minute, a data architect or a DBA because at the end of the day, the skill sets are completely different and I think that's what a lot of businesses back then didn't understand and and also.
00:04:18 Joel Robinstein
A lot of data people.
00:04:19 Joel Robinstein
Probably didn't even really.
00:04:20 Joel Robinstein
Understand everyone was a data analyst or.
00:04:23 Joel Robinstein
Or something on the back end, so yeah.
00:04:25 Joel Robinstein
It was really interesting to see.
00:04:26 Joel Robinstein
How it's developed?
00:04:27 Joel Robinstein
But it took a very long time for companies and executives to really get their head around data, and that the phrase that always comes to mind for me.
00:04:35 Joel Robinstein
I used to take my my boss Simon and the MD of our business along to meetings and the one phrase that he rolled out every time to pretend that he knew what he was on about.
00:04:44 Joel Robinstein
Was the the thing about data is no one really knows where it sits in the business? Is it in it or is it in?
00:04:49 Joel Robinstein
Technology, or is it in the business?
00:04:50 Joel Robinstein
That was quite simply what it.
00:04:52 Joel Robinstein
Was like back then it was just, you know in the corner and.
00:04:56 Joel Robinstein
People thought a database was just quite simply where you put a bit of information.
00:04:59 Joel Robinstein
And forget about it, yeah?
00:05:01 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I remember back when I was looking for my first job.
00:05:04 Dr Genevieve Hayes
After I finished my PhD, I had a PhD in statistics and I was looking for statistician jobs and they didn't exist.
00:05:13 Joel Robinstein
No, definitely not.
00:05:15 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I I ended up so I'm also an actor and I ended up getting my job at work safe because it was the only job I saw advertised that was asking for a PhD in statistics.
00:05:26 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, I'm not surprised it was. It was a weird time I used to deal with a lot of people with stats degrees.
00:05:31 Joel Robinstein
Like you're saying, a lot of them ended up in a government agency.
00:05:34 Joel Robinstein
Maybe you know the.
00:05:35 Joel Robinstein
Bureau of Statistics but weirdly.
00:05:37 Joel Robinstein
Enough, but then a lot of statisticians that I knew ended up in marketing.
00:05:41 Joel Robinstein
Which was probably maybe not what people would expect, but econometrics and market mix modelling was kind of one of the only places that you could really put your.
00:05:53 Joel Robinstein
Skills to use, but the.
00:05:54 Joel Robinstein
The thing about it back then, as opposed to now.
00:05:58 Joel Robinstein
To be a statistician at a marketing agency in 2010, you were that nerd in a corner. Then when well, why would we listen to you?
00:06:05 Joel Robinstein
We've done it this way for 30 years and we're doing.
00:06:08 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Fine, yeah, I think it was around 2015 that I first started to hear data science and machine learning. Getting mentioned to conferences. So I remember I I attended the sass.
00:06:19 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Conference that year and they had a futurist on and he was talking about the next big thing is machine learning.
00:06:26 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Think and I'd never heard the phrase machine learning before in my entire life. So as soon as that conference was over, I went home and Googled it. And it's like, Oh my God, this sounds really interesting.
00:06:39 Joel Robinstein
Yeah it would be.
00:06:40 Joel Robinstein
A good time.
00:06:41 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And that ultimately led me to me doing my masters in computer science and moving into the data science space.
00:06:48 Dr Genevieve Hayes
When do you reckon businesses really started to notice that hey, data science was a thing?
00:06:55 Joel Robinstein
I think 2015 is a good year. As you mentioned there, uhm. I mean it's one thing as well for you. Something like yourself. You understand the kind of nitty gritty. But when US?
00:07:06 Joel Robinstein
Started hearing about new phrases and terms. We have to try and go and do our research without having a technical background and.
00:07:12 Joel Robinstein
You know it makes it much more difficult, but yeah, 2015 was a really good time that the first time I heard it, someone described it to me and I said look, please just try and explain it in a way that I would understand and the first use case I ever heard was. Imagine that your Toyota and you're a car factory and you've been building a certain model.
00:07:32 Joel Robinstein
Of car a certain way and the nuts and bolts come down the production line and they go through the machines and machines know where to put that nut and bolt because it's the car they built.
00:07:41 Joel Robinstein
Then the machine starts learning as models of cars slightly changed over the years. They learn that this new bulb.
00:07:48 Joel Robinstein
Goes into a new place in the car without anyone actually having to tell it as such, and that to me in my head was OK.
00:07:54 Joel Robinstein
Well, that makes sense the machine.
00:07:55 Joel Robinstein
Is learning about the new parts by itself before it went, so that was probably the first use case, but in terms of businesses in Australia I I'm sure you've had a discussion similar to this before, but a lot of companies.
00:08:08 Joel Robinstein
These ran hard at machine learning AI data science before they had any idea what it was in that kind of 2015 to 2017 period of time, they spent a lot of money building out these new data science teams and expecting them to completely change the way they did business. But what they didn't.
00:08:28 Joel Robinstein
Realise at the time was that the majority of data scientists were very, very academic and.
00:08:34 Joel Robinstein
They were coming straight out universities to be paid crazy money in in these businesses and you know, through no fault of their own whatsoever.
00:08:42 Joel Robinstein
Though the the really specialised academics would tackle a huge interesting project to them as a data scientist and then at the end of the year long projects that's you know the business would be.
00:08:53 Joel Robinstein
Going with just sort of.
00:08:54 Joel Robinstein
$10 million on this team. What have you actually? You know, delivered?
00:08:58 Joel Robinstein
And it would be one really specific, really. Niche use case that in reality couldn't be used across the business and and again as I said I think was anyone fault as such. But they then had to completely reassess how data science fitted into them as a business and.
00:09:16 Joel Robinstein
There had to be a bit of.
00:09:17 Joel Robinstein
A meeting of the execs and the business and the data scientists in the middle. Somewhere in the sense that the data scientists had to understand.
00:09:25 Joel Robinstein
Well, look sometimes done is better than perfect and sometimes we just need to deal with the.
00:09:29 Joel Robinstein
Problem the.
00:09:30 Joel Robinstein
Business needs us to deal with and then the execs also had to understand.
00:09:34 Joel Robinstein
Well, if we're going to keep our data science.
00:09:35 Joel Robinstein
Team engaged and keep.
00:09:36 Joel Robinstein
Them here we need to give them something interesting.
00:09:39 Joel Robinstein
Something juicy for them to work on.
00:09:41 Joel Robinstein
So I think.
00:09:42 Joel Robinstein
That then started changing the mindset around 2018-2019.
00:09:47 Joel Robinstein
And the marriage between the two.
00:09:51 Joel Robinstein
Parties really started coming together and and and I think Australia started seeing what data science could do.
00:09:57 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think around that 2015 to about 2018 there was a lot of what I refer to as go do data science.
00:10:08 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, very much so.
00:10:10 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, so the organisation had hire people and tell them go do data science and in some cases they wouldn't provide them with access to Python or if they did you couldn't instal your own packages.
00:10:23 Dr Genevieve Hayes
You didn't have access to a data warehouse.
00:10:27 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And somehow you're expected to produce magic, and then when you didn't, you got told that you were completely useless.
00:10:38 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, I mean it didn't didn't sound like much fun for a lot of people.
00:10:41 Joel Robinstein
But uhm, yeah, showing what can you do?
00:10:44 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I think they actually probably lost a lot of very good people to the industry during that period. Because yeah, just I. I saw a lot of data scientists at that time becoming very disillusioned.
00:10:56 Joel Robinstein
Yeah we did as well and you know they were sold the dream when we place them in jobs and then three months in there be like hey what we're doing isn't data science or B is what you said we're not getting access to what we need in order to do this properly.
00:11:09 Joel Robinstein
And I think even just a big change, and I'm, I think obviously the use of Python And the ease of use, it's much more.
00:11:18 Joel Robinstein
Widely used now, but back then everyone touches are because it was free to use as such and you could get access to to what you needed, but our has definitely disappeared compared to Python over the last few years.
00:11:30 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Do any major organisations use our anymore?
00:11:34 Joel Robinstein
I haven't heard any of my team, so I need a.
00:11:37 Joel Robinstein
Candidate who uses are for about three years probably.
00:11:41 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Thanks, I've been speaking to a lot of organisations recently and basically once an organisation gets above a certain size, they're all using Python.
00:11:51
100%.
00:11:51 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, I mean it's it's 99.9% now which is really funny because in 2015 it.
00:11:57 Joel Robinstein
Was 99% of people who are using our so it completely tricked changed around.
00:12:03 Dr Genevieve Hayes
This actually raises a question. So back in 2015 to 2018 I mean selection criteria for data science.
00:12:10 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Jobs were pretty much a joke. I mean, it was basically a shopping list of every single data science technology that was popular at the time, yeah?
00:12:18 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And yeah, yeah, I remember looking at job ads at that time and thinking, wow?
00:12:23 Dr Genevieve Hayes
If I go and work for this organisation, I'll get to use Hadoop and Kafka and Scarle and every single thing.
00:12:33 Dr Genevieve Hayes
You'd get one of those jobs, or you know someone who does get one of these jobs. And then they're just.
00:12:38 Dr Genevieve Hayes
None of these technologies would actually exist there. It was just that the organisation thought they. That's what a data scientist was all about, even though they weren't providing these tools. You just end up using Excel.
00:12:51 Dr Genevieve Hayes
But I'm guessing organisations don't do that shopping list thing anymore.
00:12:56 Dr Genevieve Hayes
What are businesses looking for now when they're hiring data scientists?
00:13:02 Joel Robinstein
So I'll go back to go forward because what you mentioned there was was really interesting and I think the reason why it was like that.
00:13:08 Joel Robinstein
In 2015 to 18 we take that period of time. The two reasons one, a lot of the job descriptions were written by internal talent teams who didn't know what it was either, right?
00:13:17 Joel Robinstein
And so again, no fault of their own, but also.
00:13:20 Joel Robinstein
A lot of.
00:13:21 Joel Robinstein
The teams, the data teams back then were.
00:13:22 Joel Robinstein
Run by more traditional IT data people so they come from a DBA background or ETL developer. Start background and then you know progress through the ranks into into leadership positions so they would go to a conference.
00:13:38 Joel Robinstein
Hear about all the cool new tools and all the different things that everyone using and go. Oh, in order to do data science, I better make sure that I bring all those skill sets into the team, right?
00:13:46 Joel Robinstein
So again, I.
00:13:48 Joel Robinstein
Don't think it was anyone fault as such. Also back then you can imagine the budgets they were given.
00:13:54 Joel Robinstein
You know now where you'd be able to hire five people to do all those things you could only ever hire one.
00:13:59 Joel Robinstein
So that was the difference back then and where it's changed.
00:14:01 Joel Robinstein
To now, in terms of what people are looking for.
00:14:05 Joel Robinstein
The technology is becoming secondary, which is fantastic because it's what.
00:14:08 Joel Robinstein
We've been asking for.
00:14:09 Joel Robinstein
Not just as data people, but also recruiters for you know. However long I've been doing it anyways is there's you don't hire.
00:14:18 Joel Robinstein
Unless you've got a very very specialist project on a very specialist tool, you don't hire someone who's an expert in a specific technology.
00:14:27 Joel Robinstein
You hire someone first and foremost for their business acumen and their ability to turn data science into something useful, whether that be business insights or.
00:14:38 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, whatever it may be.
00:14:40 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, and the right attitude. Those are the three things that more people are hiring on now.
00:14:45 Joel Robinstein
And it took.
00:14:46 Joel Robinstein
A very very long time.
00:14:47 Joel Robinstein
For the market to shift from managers who said that's what they wanted to manage to actually practise what they said.
00:14:55 Joel Robinstein
And what I mean by that was.
00:14:57 Joel Robinstein
I think what was happening.
00:14:59 Joel Robinstein
Because data again didn't have as much of a seat at the table.
00:15:02 Joel Robinstein
If you're a data manager and you say to your boss, who again probably wasn't a data person, I need a data scientist.
00:15:10 Joel Robinstein
These are the.
00:15:10 Joel Robinstein
Skill sets and these are the tools that.
00:15:11 Joel Robinstein
We're going to be using and then you.
00:15:13 Joel Robinstein
Hired someone who didn't know those tools.
00:15:16 Joel Robinstein
The management level why? You bothered hiring that person. You told me you needed a you know a WS Python expert and over here this.
00:15:22 Joel Robinstein
Person, there's only ever.
00:15:24 Joel Robinstein
Used, you know, Azure, whatever it may be so.
00:15:26 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, the attitude has changed over time. I think for two reasons. One is tools have become more easily picked up.
00:15:35 Joel Robinstein
They're much more easy to use you you don't have to be as embedded in one environment to be able to really kind of get going on it and then obviously, after you've been in there.
00:15:46 Joel Robinstein
Roll for three to six months. You've picked up enough to. Then you know, actually be able to be an expert, so I think that's one thing the tools have really come along and and secondly.
00:15:55 Joel Robinstein
Because there's a lack of talent, managers can't sit waiting for.
00:16:00 Joel Robinstein
The perfect you know. Wrap him in a bio candidate because they probably don't exist in Australia.
00:16:06 Joel Robinstein
It's just that simple. You know you're up against pretty much every company trying to hire this talent, so I think there's definitely been a a softening of UM.
00:16:17 Joel Robinstein
That laundry list, like you mentioned, which is which is absolutely brilliant and a much more of a focus on that almost consultative business facing style of data science.
00:16:27 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And the fact is, if you, if you have past experience delivering data science projects with the right attitude and with business acumen, you must know some data science tools and techniques, because otherwise you couldn't have delivered those projects.
00:16:43 Joel Robinstein
100% and teams are becoming a lot.
00:16:45 Joel Robinstein
More where that.
00:16:47 Joel Robinstein
It's OK to have someone who is slightly less technical who is more business focused alongside your technical experts, whereas before everybody wanted it all wrapped up in a little bow and rightly or wrongly, the typical personality of a data scientist.
00:17:08 Joel Robinstein
Isn't the consultative business facing style person? And again, that's absolutely fine because you need both personalities within your team because often the consultative.
00:17:19 Joel Robinstein
Business focused person can almost get too far ahead of themselves over promise the business and they need someone to temper that saying hey, let's just take a moment that might not be as possible as you think, or if it is possible, it's going to cost.
00:17:33 Joel Robinstein
Us a lot more money than you think.
00:17:34 Dr Genevieve Hayes
So you basically you need a Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
00:17:38 Joel Robinstein
Exactly, it's that simple, right? And Apple figured that out. You know, back?
00:17:41 Joel Robinstein
In the day.
00:17:42 Joel Robinstein
So it's it's good to see that.
00:17:43 Joel Robinstein
Companies are realising that and.
00:17:46 Joel Robinstein
And there's definitely still a place.
00:17:48 Joel Robinstein
For a really specialised type of person or talented again like you mentioned there, you kind of went into an actuarial style role when you first started in the industry. I think if you have deep knowledge in something like, you know actuarial sciences or behavioural.
00:18:05 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, economics or whatever it may be. There are definitely roles and specific areas those people can can just stay in and specialise in.
00:18:14 Joel Robinstein
The problem with that would be you're limiting yourself to just being an expert in that one space. Therefore, that's where you probably only.
00:18:19 Joel Robinstein
Ever going to work?
00:18:20 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, well back when I started that was basically the only place where you could find jobs in the financial services industry.
00:18:24
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:27 Joel Robinstein
Yeah it was. Yeah to be fair when I first.
00:18:29 Joel Robinstein
Started doing recruiting 20.
00:18:30 Joel Robinstein
Ten first few years, most of my placements were in.
00:18:33 Joel Robinstein
The financial services industry? Because because that's.
00:18:35 Joel Robinstein
The the area.
00:18:36 Joel Robinstein
That spent the most on on statistics.
00:18:38 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, and I mean I thought I was never ever going to leave the financial services industry and then data science.
00:18:45 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, well, exactly and.
00:18:46 Joel Robinstein
It made it accessible to everybody and and the phrase that everybody would use back then was I wanna get into financial services because they knew that's where they were able to progress their career. Whereas now it's probably.
00:18:57 Joel Robinstein
I you know I want to.
00:18:58 Joel Robinstein
Get into health or wanna.
00:18:59 Joel Robinstein
Get into retail or whatever it may be so.
00:19:01 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I think up until the global financial crisis, the coolest job was a quantitative analyst in the financial service.
00:19:08 Dr Genevieve Hayes
This industry and I wanted to be one of those at one point and then the global financial crisis happened.
00:19:14 Joel Robinstein
And no one wanted to work in finance.
00:19:17 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Actually, this was early in my career, so I wanted to do that, except no one would hire A graduate level want at that stage.
00:19:28 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, that was a big challenge. It's still a.
00:19:30 Joel Robinstein
Challenge today, but less of a chance.
00:19:33 Joel Robinstein
The the challenge about.
00:19:34 Joel Robinstein
Them was how the hell do I start you?
00:19:36 Joel Robinstein
Know who's going to.
00:19:37 Joel Robinstein
Hire me, but because again, the the the more the lack of talent. Now companies are much more willing to take.
00:19:43 Joel Robinstein
Graduates, which is which is really good to see.
00:19:45 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah yeah, one of the things I.
00:19:47 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Was thinking about.
00:19:48 Dr Genevieve Hayes
If it's so hard to find talent, where are the organisations who do find it looking?
00:19:56 Joel Robinstein
Well, First things first, some of the smarter organisations have started thinking to this as well. Where can I find?
00:20:02 Joel Robinstein
Parallel skills that are going to be able to be brought in so.
00:20:06 Joel Robinstein
You know, because.
00:20:07 Joel Robinstein
The data space is is so.
00:20:09 Joel Robinstein
Much good PR for it these days.
00:20:10 Joel Robinstein
And you know.
00:20:11
Everyone thinks.
00:20:12 Joel Robinstein
Today scientists all own $1,000,000 a year.
00:20:14 Joel Robinstein
Which all cops know.
00:20:15 Joel Robinstein
Isn't true, but people want to get into the.
00:20:17 Joel Robinstein
Space, so we're thinking you know, business analysts.
00:20:20 Joel Robinstein
Project managers who worked on data projects. They understand the data environment, but maybe our technical. How do we upskill and and move those people across into into more technical roles and?
00:20:31 Joel Robinstein
People from a.
00:20:32 Joel Robinstein
Marketing background of brilliant because they understand human behaviour. So again, if you can get them dangerous enough on something like an SQL or or.
00:20:40 Joel Robinstein
Tableau. They can pretty much straightaway become a good analyst, so that's what some agent so companies have been doing, which I think is really, really smart because the talent might already be in your or your business. So so that's #1 #2.
00:20:58 Joel Robinstein
They're looking everywhere. It's the short of it. You know they're turning over every single rock that they possibly can come.
00:21:04 Joel Robinstein
It's probably one of the areas that people are willing to look overseas for more. Specialist talent, which is great.
00:21:09 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, it's also, you know. I think they're understanding as well, like there had to be an understanding for software.
00:21:16 Joel Robinstein
Engineers or software developers that.
00:21:18 Joel Robinstein
These kind of roles can be done remotely. They can be done from home most of the time.
00:21:21 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, so how do we offer more hybrid working? Obviously covered? You know the pandemic really helped with progressing that along more quickly, so uhm.
00:21:32 Joel Robinstein
Even smarter, they'd be putting on their own events, putting their head of data science up on stage, saying, hey, you know this is what we do.
00:21:39 Joel Robinstein
These are the cool projects that we work on on which you know maybe suddenly you've got 100 data people in a room.
00:21:45 Joel Robinstein
UM, hearing them speak so.
00:21:47 Joel Robinstein
I want to say there's there's.
00:21:48 Joel Robinstein
One specific place that the that.
00:21:50 Joel Robinstein
One company is winning over.
00:21:52 Joel Robinstein
Others, UM, you've got all the usual.
00:21:55 Joel Robinstein
You know things around? Was it a good brand name? Is that a company that people trust? Is IT company that they can see themselves working for UM?
00:22:02 Joel Robinstein
But even the best you know, the Atlanteans and the Googles and whoever else. I mean they they struggle to find people as well.
00:22:08 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I've heard about organisations looking on platforms like Kaggle for potential umpires. Does that happen or is that just a myth?
00:22:18 Joel Robinstein
I wouldn't say it's a.
00:22:19 Joel Robinstein
Myth, but in terms of how high it would be up the list of where you find someone, I'd say it be near the bottom because.
00:22:26 Joel Robinstein
I think the amount of effort in versus what you get out for doing so, like 'cause we we we tried to do it GitHub a bit back in the day and how do you find a coder or developer back in the?
00:22:35 Joel Robinstein
Day on GitHub. That might be a bit easier.
00:22:38 Joel Robinstein
But in reality, the traditional sourcing methods.
00:22:43 Joel Robinstein
The effort in is much more likely to give you something out the.
00:22:47 Joel Robinstein
Back end which is just.
00:22:48 Joel Robinstein
So it's advertising, whether it's been on LinkedIn, whether it's
00:22:51 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, you having graduate programmes?
00:22:54 Joel Robinstein
That that's the main source still.
00:22:56 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I I know on LinkedIn at the moment there's one particular organisation that is very aggressively looking for data scientists because I have gotten there. Add about 20 times in the last fortnight that they are looking for data scientists and I meet.
00:23:13 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Whatever their selection criteria is.
00:23:15 Joel Robinstein
Well, good job that you're actually getting something that is.
00:23:17 Joel Robinstein
Applicable to your?
00:23:17
Skills because I think.
00:23:19 Joel Robinstein
A lot of people on LinkedIn complain that they're getting something that's.
00:23:21 Joel Robinstein
Completely different.
00:23:22 Joel Robinstein
So yeah, I mean there's there's a heavy amount of marketing that goes into to LinkedIn, and those ads, like you mentioned, they follow you around just like they would if you're on a clothing website. We've stopped using that. We did find success.
00:23:35 Joel Robinstein
With it over the years.
00:23:36 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, but we just find that there's so much noise now and so many companies doing that that you have to spend a lot of money to be that company. That is the one that you see 20 times.
00:23:50 Joel Robinstein
And that's just for them to see you.
00:23:51 Joel Robinstein
And then it's.
00:23:52 Joel Robinstein
Well, they need to click through and they need to actually action something.
00:23:56 Joel Robinstein
But the the cases right now, because data scientists know that they've got so many opportunities available to them. The reason those adverts do work sometimes is they've just got to get you on the right day where you go. You know what I'm?
00:24:07 Joel Robinstein
Just having a bad day and I just.
00:24:09 Joel Robinstein
You know, go on, why not? I'll just have a look.
00:24:11 Joel Robinstein
And then they might put you.
00:24:13 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Fair enough.
00:24:16 Dr Genevieve Hayes
A lot of these roles that we we sent we talking about here, they seem seem to be technician type roles. How does recruitment for data staff very once you start moving up the career ladder?
00:24:30 Joel Robinstein
I'd say that the 1st.
00:24:32 Joel Robinstein
Difference is that a lot more of the roles that people get as they move up the ladder are through direct referrals or someone that you know, or you've been in the business.
00:24:44 Joel Robinstein
I mean, let's just let's just take a really simple example. If you've been working in a bank for 10 years and you've worked your way up to associate director level, let's say.
00:24:53 Joel Robinstein
Soon as that director leaves, that director probably has four or five associate directors reporting directly into them, right? So all four or five of those people are probably gonna throw their hat.
00:25:02 Joel Robinstein
In the ring.
00:25:02 Joel Robinstein
For that more senior position so.
00:25:06 Joel Robinstein
A lot of the clients that we work with.
00:25:09 Joel Robinstein
Especially that probably the best way to describe it would be lower upper management and what I mean by low upper management be ahead of division or something like that.
00:25:19 Joel Robinstein
They would use us as a benchmark against their own internal people. They wouldn't necessarily always be looking to hire that person from external because they might all have already have the skills.
00:25:31 Joel Robinstein
And then as you.
00:25:32 Joel Robinstein
Go further up into you know your CDO's and and your top ends. Then you're going to start. Be looking at executive search.
00:25:39 Joel Robinstein
Firms, which is great to see because.
00:25:43 Joel Robinstein
Once you kind of break into the executive firm world in terms of the job title, it really means that.
00:25:49 Joel Robinstein
That job function and that whole division has risen to a certain point where executive search firms go well. Well, these are roles that are worth us trying to work on with with big companies.
00:26:02 Joel Robinstein
So I've seen that I care a lot more of the last two or three years, which means that data definitely has a seat at.
00:26:07 Joel Robinstein
The table at that top end, which is great.
00:26:09 Joel Robinstein
And in terms of what they're looking for.
00:26:12 Joel Robinstein
It's I'm sure you you know this as.
00:26:14 Joel Robinstein
Well as I.
00:26:15 Joel Robinstein
It's often not the most technical person who sits at the.
00:26:17 Joel Robinstein
Top of
00:26:17 Joel Robinstein
The tree right now.
00:26:19 Joel Robinstein
They don't sit down next to a data scientist and say hey how?
00:26:22 Joel Robinstein
About you tweak.
00:26:22 Joel Robinstein
This model this way.
00:26:23 Joel Robinstein
They are very much business focused people. They understand how data flows through a business and can be utilised I think.
00:26:33 Joel Robinstein
The the hardest jump for anyone within data is going. From that siloed, I'm working on this problem for this division data person too.
00:26:45 Joel Robinstein
OK, there's a 30,000 person organisation here and we have 5,000,000 customers that there's data touchpoints that touch every single part of that, and to be able to have that.
00:26:55 Joel Robinstein
Bigger picture and.
00:26:57 Joel Robinstein
That view of how it all works is a is a very difficult mindset which a lot of people will never reach, which is.
00:27:04 Joel Robinstein
Why I guess, obviously it's.
00:27:05 Joel Robinstein
A pyramid, right? You know if you paint.
00:27:08 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I. I was actually talking to a previous guest about that transition and.
00:27:14 Dr Genevieve Hayes
We're talking about how that's almost a grieving process going. Giving away the tools and then taking on a new functionality.
00:27:22 Joel Robinstein
Definitely would be dumb. You know you spent so long learning and developing those skills and you feel like you're just chucking them out the door.
00:27:29 Joel Robinstein
But look in reality, having that knowledge and background.
00:27:33 Joel Robinstein
Will help that senior leader.
00:27:36 Joel Robinstein
Understand what the person at ground level is thinking whilst also understanding what the rest of the business is thinking. And that's where the best leaders in the data space they're able to play is is both sides.
00:27:47 Dr Genevieve Hayes
One of the things that was raised in that previous episode when we're talking about the transition from technician to line manager to senior manager was that that path up the career ladder isn't the only path. The career path available to technically minded people.
00:28:06 Dr Genevieve Hayes
From your perspective, what are some of the different career paths that are available to data scientists? If they're not interested in going into management?
00:28:15 Joel Robinstein
They are there and I think the caveat would be is you simply will not earn as much if unless you get that big big job it.
00:28:25 Joel Robinstein
It's just that simple because we don't work in Silicon Valley.
00:28:29 Joel Robinstein
Right we we.
00:28:30 Joel Robinstein
We we don't have half $1,000,000 salaries for specialised data scientists in Australia.
00:28:36 Joel Robinstein
There just isn't the money here, so to really focus on the more I guess the local problems that we have.
00:28:41 Joel Robinstein
It does seem that there is a bit.
00:28:43 Joel Robinstein
Of a cap.
00:28:44 Joel Robinstein
For a lot of people within that technical space, there will be certain businesses and I already mentioned at ATLASI and being one.
00:28:53 Joel Robinstein
Where they have that capacity to it, I really.
00:28:58 Joel Robinstein
Don't want to call them pet projects, but they they can afford to have weird and funky job titles where someone is just doing something that is just super specialised that if it pays off will be worth millions.
00:29:10 Joel Robinstein
But it may just not go anywhere, right? So there is a bit of a cap in Australia. Unfortunately for those really specialised people and.
00:29:18 Joel Robinstein
You know a A.
00:29:20 Joel Robinstein
Really specialised chief data scientist who?
00:29:23 Joel Robinstein
Is still hands on with the tools.
00:29:24 Joel Robinstein
It's still not.
00:29:25 Joel Robinstein
Going to earn as much as as a CDO at a bank, let's just say.
00:29:29 Joel Robinstein
And so I think my advice would be for anyone who does want to be technical throughout their whole life, but is also career driven and also money driven.
00:29:38 Joel Robinstein
At some point, you always need to.
00:29:40 Joel Robinstein
Carve out your own.
00:29:42 Joel Robinstein
Niche and your own space and whether that.
00:29:45 Joel Robinstein
Be within the.
00:29:45 Joel Robinstein
Business that you're in or within an industry or another.
00:29:49 Joel Robinstein
Business that you can see.
00:29:50 Joel Robinstein
Hey, if I did this there would be X amount of return. Therefore I am worth a much higher amount I'm I'm thinking investment banking and and.
00:30:02 Joel Robinstein
That that sort of space where you can really see something like that or within the health industry. If you really specialise in within a, uh, a certain, uhm, I guess disease or ailment which if you.
00:30:14 Joel Robinstein
You know through.
00:30:15 Joel Robinstein
Your work you can. You can really nail it that.
00:30:18 Joel Robinstein
Would be my advice.
00:30:20 Joel Robinstein
Because otherwise, unfortunately.
00:30:21 Joel Robinstein
You you do just hit a cap. If if you don't want to be that person managing it in.
00:30:25 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Just out of interest and I've got a number in.
00:30:27 Dr Genevieve Hayes
My head what?
00:30:29 Dr Genevieve Hayes
What is the cap?
00:30:31 Joel Robinstein
Like, I'll I'll say, a number.
00:30:33 Joel Robinstein
Here, and I bet they'll be that.
00:30:33 Joel Robinstein
One person he'll be like well.
00:30:35 Joel Robinstein
I on this and.
00:30:36 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, but but look, you know, let's let's.
00:30:38 Joel Robinstein
Be realistic in a traditional.
00:30:44 Joel Robinstein
Corporate business that CAP is probably $200,000.
00:30:48 Joel Robinstein
But if you then really figure out and niche down and and and and nail it, obviously you can then become that specialist.
00:30:56 Joel Robinstein
You may be under 2526270, but those are numbers that I very rarely here, so it doesn't mean they're impossible, but I'd I'd say look, uh?
00:31:08 Joel Robinstein
Uh, lead data scientist.
00:31:10 Joel Robinstein
Probably about 180 base to 200 base in Australia.
00:31:13
That's just what?
00:31:15 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, that's that's the number I had in my head about 180.
00:31:18 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, exactly right. UM, if you then decide or find a way where the business needs a certain project delivering.
00:31:26 Joel Robinstein
Which is a.
00:31:27 Joel Robinstein
A business critical project and you take on the project leadership, which is different to people management. There is that as well. That is a possible way where you know you could become bonus differently or or.
00:31:38 Joel Robinstein
Three different channels.
00:31:40 Dr Genevieve Hayes
OK, so it's if people don't want to go down that people leadership and management path.
00:31:46 Dr Genevieve Hayes
They can do it, but there are consequences to it.
00:31:49 Joel Robinstein
Correct and now look, some people may see those consequences positive. You never have to deal with people problems which.
00:31:55 Joel Robinstein
You know that's not the.
00:31:57
Worst thing in.
00:31:57 Joel Robinstein
The world at the end of the day so.
00:31:58 Joel Robinstein
No, you know you could move overseas, but I think if we really think about it though.
00:32:06 Joel Robinstein
If you were in 180 to $200,000, you are in the 1% within Australia. You are reading a fantastic salary so you know it's not something to be depressed and sad about because it's still a great salary.
00:32:17
Right?
00:32:19 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And so I think it's one of those things, no matter how much you're earning, you want to be earning more, and I'm sure the CEO of BHP. He's probably earning millions and millions of dollars would want to be.
00:32:30 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, it is just the way.
00:32:32 Joel Robinstein
Of life right? And I've seen this over the 12.
00:32:33 Joel Robinstein
Years I've been.
00:32:34 Joel Robinstein
Working in recruiting because hey, your lifestyle shifts with your salary.
00:32:37 Joel Robinstein
So in in terms of your actual disposable income, it often is about the bubbly saying right, so and then the the the flip side of it is as well as as you start adding that money. You're obviously in the top tax bracket so.
00:32:50 Joel Robinstein
That $10,000 increase is a $5000 increase because yet 47% tax so.
00:32:58 Joel Robinstein
There is I I read about it many years ago and I wouldn't be able to cite where it was from, but.
00:33:04 Joel Robinstein
There was a study that said, I think it was around once you start earning above around 15160 your happiness plateaus.
00:33:12 Joel Robinstein
And I I could 100% say that because.
00:33:17 Joel Robinstein
You just constantly scrabbling for more constantly screaming for more, but what is it really added into your life? You've hit a certain level of comfort where you know.
00:33:24 Joel Robinstein
Or is there?
00:33:24 Joel Robinstein
Food on your table. You're always going.
00:33:26 Joel Robinstein
To have a little.
00:33:26 Joel Robinstein
Bit of money to have some fun with.
00:33:28 Joel Robinstein
Really, that's what most people work for, so owning that extra 20.
00:33:32 Joel Robinstein
$1000 does not make people packed people.
00:33:34 Joel Robinstein
Happy which I.
00:33:35 Joel Robinstein
Guess would lead us into another conversation or.
00:33:37 Joel Robinstein
Topic around.
00:33:39 Joel Robinstein
You know, is it worth it?
00:33:41 Joel Robinstein
I think, but you know that's for everyone to decide themselves.
00:33:45 Dr Genevieve Hayes
While we're on the topic of career path, so we've discussed, you know the technical technicians, technical specialist path versus the climbing the corporate ladder path for people who are interested in climbing that Corp.
00:34:01 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Ladder because data science is a new profession. I'd imagine a lot of organisations don't really have a clear path, even for those people who want to go along a traditional path like that. Do data scientists who want to climb the corporate ladder have to change employers?
00:34:21 Dr Genevieve Hayes
A few times in order to build a career for themselves, or is it viable for them to remain in the same organisation?
00:34:28 Joel Robinstein
It quite simply depends where you are. If you work for a big bank or big consultancy, UM, the large enough global firm you can stay where you are for 25 years and climb the ladder. No problem right? And and in some senses you it might be.
00:34:44 Joel Robinstein
The safest.
00:34:46 Joel Robinstein
And easiest way, but will take the longest.
00:34:50 Joel Robinstein
Because you have to do.
00:34:50 Joel Robinstein
It systematically.
00:34:51 Joel Robinstein
Right and you may get passed over for promotion and then you're like oh, I gotta wait.
00:34:55 Joel Robinstein
Another two years to see how that is.
00:34:57 Joel Robinstein
But the benefit?
00:34:58 Joel Robinstein
Have been in that bigger organisation is you.
00:35:00 Joel Robinstein
Can move divisions.
00:35:01 Joel Robinstein
You can move across to then move up right? So that's one way of.
00:35:06 Joel Robinstein
Doing it if you're working in a.
00:35:07 Joel Robinstein
Small, medium even small large.
00:35:10 Joel Robinstein
If that makes sense, company you're probably gonna have to move around. You know one of the benefits of moving businesses is that you get different experiences.
00:35:17 Joel Robinstein
You see how well projects are run in different kinds of companies, and that's going to help me springboard a lot quicker.
00:35:26 Joel Robinstein
You know it's a lot easier.
00:35:27 Joel Robinstein
To get salary increases.
00:35:28 Joel Robinstein
When you move job as well.
00:35:30 Joel Robinstein
If that's something that's important to you so.
00:35:33 Joel Robinstein
It's very difficult to.
00:35:35 Joel Robinstein
Carve out a long term 25 year career. If the company only has 1000 people and it's not a data driven business. If that makes sense.
00:35:44 Joel Robinstein
So yeah, there's there's. There's two ways of doing it, and and it really just depends on which which route you want to take.
00:35:52 Dr Genevieve Hayes
One thing I think is really interesting, I've been speaking to a lot of people doing data in different organisations and the question that people always ask me at the end of these conversations is what's it like in every other organisation?
00:36:04 Dr Genevieve Hayes
How do we compare to everyone else? So I think there's a lot of advantages to seeing what it's like in multiple places.
00:36:12 Joel Robinstein
I agree, and I think it also just depends.
00:36:14 Joel Robinstein
On what's important to you? I mean obviously.
00:36:16 Joel Robinstein
We talking from my experience. I've stayed in the same company for 12 years and there's only 30 of us so and I've been able to develop a career.
00:36:24 Joel Robinstein
And the more recent job change that I've done, as well as only become available based on the kind of knowledge and skills that I've developed for myself within the business to then almost create.
00:36:36 Joel Robinstein
A role that whilst there's a business need, I've also helped kind of push forward. Now I work in a different industry to a lot of people. Recruitments quite unique in in how you can advance your career in a smaller business, but.
00:36:51 Joel Robinstein
I definitely think there is a lot to be said for trying different things. You know, I think the consulting industry up until more recently probably had a bit of a bad rap in terms of, you know, working hours and you know the stress that's put on you, but I I think for someone in the data industry.
00:37:09 Joel Robinstein
You spend two or three years within consulting in the first.
00:37:13 Joel Robinstein
5-6 years of their career actually ends up being extremely useful in the next 10 to 20 years of their career.
00:37:19 Joel Robinstein
Because you move.
00:37:20 Joel Robinstein
Around projects you get to work in different industries. You get to meet different people. You become consultative, you become business focused and and whilst it may not be something that you end up staying within, you know there are people who start at PDC undergrad.
00:37:33 Joel Robinstein
Programming their senior partner 30 years later, right? And that works for them.
00:37:36 Joel Robinstein
But I I.
00:37:37 Joel Robinstein
Think having that variety early in your career.
00:37:40 Joel Robinstein
Is important at the same time, I would temper caution.
00:37:46 Joel Robinstein
You know not to move around every.
00:37:47 Joel Robinstein
12 months.
00:37:48 Joel Robinstein
So many times because.
00:37:51 Joel Robinstein
Whilst you get great experience when you get hit with that question of what have you actually delivered, it's pretty hard to deliver a lot within a short space of time, right?
00:37:59 Joel Robinstein
So but yeah.
00:38:01 Joel Robinstein
And look in in terms of consulting.
00:38:04 Joel Robinstein
There are a lot of.
00:38:05 Joel Robinstein
A lot of changes happened over the last few years within that industry, so to really make it a more viable option for people, which is great.
00:38:12 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Can can you give us some examples of some of the changes you've seen?
00:38:16 Joel Robinstein
Well, First things first, I think the consultant of yesteryear was.
00:38:21 Joel Robinstein
It's Sunday night. We've run a project in Canberra. You're off the camera for three months on Monday, right? Which you know, it's it's very difficult for anyone to to live like that.
00:38:32 Joel Robinstein
You spend as much time on a plane as you were working on the project, so that's one thing that's definitely changed, which is fantastic, and I think obviously remote working is help with.
00:38:40 Joel Robinstein
That as well it.
00:38:42 Joel Robinstein
It used to be as well that quite often you'd be hired.
00:38:47 Joel Robinstein
You know you'd be sold their dream if you'll be doing the most amazing advanced data science work ever and then suddenly you're on a project where you literally just migrating data from one database to another.
00:38:55 Joel Robinstein
I think that has changed as well. I'm not saying it's perfect, 'cause it still happens, but it's definitely better.
00:39:01 Joel Robinstein
And then there's been the rise.
00:39:02 Joel Robinstein
Of the small to medium consultancy in Australia.
00:39:05 Joel Robinstein
Where they do really cool.
00:39:07 Joel Robinstein
Interesting projects, but in a.
00:39:10 Joel Robinstein
Canva Atlasi and style environment. Internally you know where everyone you know kind of has fun.
00:39:15 Joel Robinstein
And you know you.
00:39:16 Joel Robinstein
You've got the kind of hybrid culture and and so I think there's there's more options in that industry, and I think the consulting industry had to change, especially the bigger firms because they weren't able to retain the people that they needed to retain because.
00:39:29 Joel Robinstein
Of what I've just said.
00:39:32 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Which brings me to my next question. What sort of strategies can organisations employ in order to attract retain their data staff once they hire them?
00:39:42 Joel Robinstein
So retention is quite similar to retraction, UM, we do a yearly survey which we've been running now for about six or seven years.
00:39:50 Joel Robinstein
We just put these shares out as well, but I haven't got the results for that in time for this podcast, unfortunately, but.
00:39:55 Joel Robinstein
I I think back to last year's UM survey and the top three things were top four. Really that it came up in terms of retention.
00:40:04 Joel Robinstein
Number one is salary and you know people may not want to talk about that. Oh, you know, we've got this really cool environment and the ping pong table and cool project the other day. People want to earn money so I think we just need to start there.
00:40:16 Joel Robinstein
And I think we just need to be honest about that, that the best way to retain your staff is to pay them.
00:40:20 Joel Robinstein
Well it is.
00:40:21 Joel Robinstein
That simple and.
00:40:23 Joel Robinstein
Then from there it becomes a little bit more even, but what came out top in last year's study, which I don't think will will surprise you at all this flexibility?
00:40:32 Joel Robinstein
Now flexibility. I think a lot of companies got it wrong over the last year where they.
00:40:39 Joel Robinstein
Just went cold.
00:40:40 Joel Robinstein
Blanket flexibility policy. Look how cool we are. You can come in the office two days a week and.
00:40:45 Joel Robinstein
We're the best.
00:40:47 Joel Robinstein
In reality.
00:40:49 Joel Robinstein
An individualised flexibility policy is what's winning, so you may need to start at 10:00 AM because you always drop your kids off to school. I may need to finish.
00:41:00 Joel Robinstein
Earlier, because I pick my kids up from from school, uhm, you know I may need more time off during the semester because I'm doing a masters.
00:41:09 Joel Robinstein
But during the holidays, I'm willing to put more working.
00:41:13 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, each person is.
00:41:14 Joel Robinstein
Different and and just a blanket flexibility policy. Whilst good, it's not gonna retain everyone, it's only retained. The people that that.
00:41:22 Joel Robinstein
Policy works for.
00:41:23 Joel Robinstein
And then the third and.
00:41:24 Joel Robinstein
Fourth, things that came up in that area that people want. Number one of these two, should I say #3 on the list was interesting projects.
00:41:33 Joel Robinstein
And again, that can mean a lot of different things to model from. People write an interesting project to you. It's different to an interesting project for me and that.
00:41:43 Joel Robinstein
Pace comes back to.
00:41:45 Joel Robinstein
More around the.
00:41:45 Joel Robinstein
Interview process have.
00:41:47 Joel Robinstein
You really understood the person that you're hiring who really dug into their drivers as to what they're interested in, and then fourth again, a really hard one to get right was a culture and again a culture that works for you might not be a culture that works for me, and a phrase that we've.
00:42:04 Joel Robinstein
Tried to.
00:42:05 Joel Robinstein
Precision sourcing and impress upon our clients is that.
00:42:08 Joel Robinstein
We we really need.
00:42:09 Joel Robinstein
To move away from the phrase culture fit.
00:42:15 Joel Robinstein
You know we shouldn't try and hire people just like ourselves and we shouldn't live in an echo Chamber of.
00:42:21 Joel Robinstein
This is how we do things. We try and use the phrase more. So what are you going to add to our culture so we can understand what that person is adding during the interview process? Then we're much better going to understand long term, how we're going to retain that person.
00:42:35 Joel Robinstein
So your your culture should change and.
00:42:37 Joel Robinstein
Develop as people join your.
00:42:38 Joel Robinstein
Business, so I guess just to just to kind of reiterate the salary far and.
00:42:42 Joel Robinstein
Above everything else.
00:42:44 Joel Robinstein
Then flexibility, interesting projects and a good work.
00:42:47 Joel Robinstein
In culture.
00:42:48 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Sounds like what I look for in a job, so I'd agree with that.
00:42:51 Joel Robinstein
And you know they're the easy ones. And the ones that every goal that's bloody obvious and well, that's probably why it's bloody obvious, right? Because that's what people want.
00:43:01 Joel Robinstein
The hidden one that people don't understand as much or the hidden two. Should I say #1 is recognition.
00:43:08 Joel Robinstein
I think a lot of companies.
00:43:10 Joel Robinstein
I think they've got a great culture. Think they've got great flexibility, but in reality.
00:43:14 Joel Robinstein
Sometimes all someone.
00:43:15 Joel Robinstein
Wants is a Halo cook good a job this person did you know. Well done for putting some extra effort in.
00:43:22 Joel Robinstein
Sometimes even just well done for putting the required amount of effort in, because we can see that you're struggling at home and you've got a lot going on, but you're still showing up.
00:43:29 Joel Robinstein
And you're still putting into work recognition is.
00:43:33 Joel Robinstein
Is so important and I'm I'm sure UM for yourself as well. Whilst we we sit here as adults and say, well you know I know when I'm doing a good job and I.
00:43:41 Joel Robinstein
Don't need someone to pat me on the back.
00:43:43 Joel Robinstein
It's nice to get that pat in the back.
00:43:46 Joel Robinstein
And and the second one.
00:43:47 Joel Robinstein
Which some companies nailed and for some people companies this was completely.
00:43:53 Joel Robinstein
Eroded during COVID.
00:43:54 Joel Robinstein
Trust and, and that's the number one reason I've stayed at precision for 12 years is, I trust, my boss is implicitly that whatever decision they're making is not just best for their business, but best for me.
00:44:05 Joel Robinstein
And sometimes what's best for business isn't what I.
00:44:08 Joel Robinstein
Think is best for.
00:44:09 Joel Robinstein
Me, but in the long run might be and.
00:44:11 Joel Robinstein
Then also vice versa.
00:44:13 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, I think.
00:44:14 Dr Genevieve Hayes
What you said about recognition. I had a manager once who actually said to the team. You know he was uncomfortable with saying good job to people because he didn't like. He felt uncomfortable when people said that him and I remember having a conversation with him saying.
00:44:29 Dr Genevieve Hayes
You know?
00:44:30 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Probably is a good idea to say good job and things like that once in a while and he took and he said yes.
00:44:36 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yes, I agree, I agree and then didn't do a thing and.
00:44:42 Joel Robinstein
They didn't listen at all. It's a shame because I I don't understand and also the phrase well, you know we're paying you to do a job so you know that's.
00:44:50 Joel Robinstein
The recognition that you get is pain.
00:44:52 Joel Robinstein
Yeah only well, I mean.
00:44:53 Joel Robinstein
Are we what we wanna do here? Like which one to?
00:44:55 Joel Robinstein
Retain people in a really.
00:44:56 Joel Robinstein
Tough market let's.
00:44:57 Joel Robinstein
Just you know, telling they're doing a good job.
00:45:00 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And it doesn't cost anything to say good job.
00:45:02 Joel Robinstein
No, it doesn't. You know it's a lot cheaper than three days on a Friday. Or you know team trip away somewhere. So I would highly recommend people start saying.
00:45:11 Joel Robinstein
Well then a lot more.
00:45:12 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I would much rather be told good job than here. Have a beer.
00:45:16 Joel Robinstein
Exactly right, there you go.
00:45:18 Joel Robinstein
But then also what's important.
00:45:19 Joel Robinstein
For us to know is that the person next you may want the beer so you know, let's have the option at the end of.
00:45:24 Joel Robinstein
The day you.
00:45:25 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Know this thing yeah could always go good job here. Have a beer.
00:45:28 Joel Robinstein
Even better, yeah exactly then everyone winning.
00:45:31 Joel Robinstein
So yeah, I I just.
00:45:33 Joel Robinstein
I think it's just so important for leaders to be open and honest with their teams and and not be scared of these conversations.
00:45:41 Joel Robinstein
I I tried to a guy on one of our.
00:45:43 Joel Robinstein
Podcasts and and we said, well, how do you retain people? And we said, well, you need to be talking to team every three months minimum are you enjoying?
00:45:51 Joel Robinstein
Yourself. Do you like your work?
00:45:53 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, you know what's kneeling? You come, you know you need to be catching these people constantly because.
00:45:59 Joel Robinstein
You know everybody is being approached on a weekly.
00:46:01 Joel Robinstein
Basis, whether it's on LinkedIn or a phone.
00:46:03 Joel Robinstein
Call from a recruiter rate.
00:46:04 Joel Robinstein
It doesn't take long for that to fester and turn it into someone leaving, and the guy was trying to good good friend of our business and said, well, I don't know if.
00:46:14 Joel Robinstein
I want.
00:46:14 Joel Robinstein
To bring that conversation up so much, because what if I?
00:46:17 Joel Robinstein
Make them think that they do want to leave.
00:46:19 Joel Robinstein
And I was.
00:46:19 Joel Robinstein
Like, well, I'd.
00:46:20 Joel Robinstein
Say you'd be much better pressed to have the conversation and get ahead of it and then just wait and sit and hope and then get surprised by it I'm leaving.
00:46:29 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I used to I I was a manager for about 9 years before I. I'm specialised in the technical side of things and I used to find those conversations were very awkward.
00:46:39 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I did have them, but because you always had to make sure you phrase them in such a way that it didn't sound like I wanna get rid of you and I I'm trying to push you out.
00:46:49 Dr Genevieve Hayes
The daughter.
00:46:50 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, you're right, you got.
00:46:51 Joel Robinstein
It you're right, you have to be.
00:46:52 Joel Robinstein
Delicate with it but.
00:46:55 Joel Robinstein
And it it sounds like it's great that you did it. If you've got that level of trust with your team.
00:46:59 Joel Robinstein
That they know you're coming in with good intentions because a it's a retention conversation then there. Then it's probably gonna go go.
00:47:07 Joel Robinstein
OK, let's be honest.
00:47:08 Joel Robinstein
And you know, if it doesn't go OK.
00:47:09 Joel Robinstein
Maybe you don't want.
00:47:10 Joel Robinstein
That person in your team anyway, and that's fine too.
00:47:13 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I used to preface it with. I am not trying to push you out the door, but I would like to have this conversation.
00:47:19 Joel Robinstein
Exactly right, you know that breaks the.
00:47:21 Joel Robinstein
Ice right. With the conversation there.
00:47:22 Joel Robinstein
Was a little laugh and.
00:47:23 Joel Robinstein
All the rest of it.
00:47:25 Joel Robinstein
But you know, there's.
00:47:26 Joel Robinstein
The other side of the coin as well, I.
00:47:28 Joel Robinstein
I and this is really prevalent in our industry.
00:47:32 Joel Robinstein
Everyone is so focused on retention they forget that sometimes you don't want to retain someone. And that's also OK. You know we have the.
00:47:39 Joel Robinstein
The, uh, it's it's. It's a kind of phrase. It's easy to say recruitment because it's a target based job, but you have the high Buehler who is essential to your business bottom line, but they are.
00:47:52 Joel Robinstein
You know, with with with looking for a better word. They're not a nice person. They say I won't swear on the podcast too much and and they actually do a lot more damage to your businesses culture and and the way things are running totally, and whilst they are a high performer in terms of numbers, they're not high perform in terms of.
00:48:10 Joel Robinstein
The team and getting.
00:48:12 Joel Robinstein
Rid of something like that can actually help elevate the rest of the team to be high performers come, so I think leaders need to be really aware.
00:48:19 Joel Robinstein
Of just because someone good at.
00:48:20 Joel Robinstein
Their job doesn't mean.
00:48:21 Joel Robinstein
That you want them in your business.
00:48:23 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I think one of the most insidious people you can have in a team is the kiss up kick down person.
00:48:31 Dr Genevieve Hayes
The boss thinks they're fantastic and everyone else hates them.
00:48:35 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, exactly, and and the bosses.
00:48:36 Joel Robinstein
Blind to it right? Because to.
00:48:38 Joel Robinstein
Them they're great performer, yeah.
00:48:40 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, you gotta be really careful of that person.
00:48:43 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, and those ones whenever you actually say to the boss, you are aware that this person keeps kicking down at me. It's like, no, no, they're lovely. I'm sure your misinterpret.
00:48:53 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Thing is.
00:48:54 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, that that's a manager putting their head in the sand, right? Because they don't want to deal with the problem.
00:48:59 Joel Robinstein
Uh, when I'm sure we've all met plenty of people like that before, but you know what? You know. I think there's well what the team A-Team needs to understand.
00:48:59 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Oh yes.
00:49:07 Joel Robinstein
And obviously, as you said, you're a leader for nine years, and I guarantee I bet you'd say that the leader.
00:49:12 Joel Robinstein
You were in.
00:49:12 Joel Robinstein
Year one was.
00:49:13 Joel Robinstein
Very different to the leader you were in.
00:49:15 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, 9 right so?
00:49:16 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, sometimes the you know the leader isn't infallible.
00:49:19 Joel Robinstein
Right you.
00:49:20 Joel Robinstein
You need your team to.
00:49:21 Joel Robinstein
Give that lead a little bit of leeway as well and and you know, try and help them out, but also understand that they're gonna make mistakes and you know not see everything. So I I, I definitely think where.
00:49:33 Joel Robinstein
Businesses are really succeeding in terms of retention. I guess to put a real nice bow on this conversation. It's just those companies are willing to talk, willing to be open and willing to put things on the table willing to get in a.
00:49:44 Joel Robinstein
Room and and.
00:49:45 Joel Robinstein
Just just know what's going on from the the the lowest level employee all the way up to the top and the more you can have those open.
00:49:53 Joel Robinstein
And honest conversations the better because you know, people often move on just because they don't feel like they belong. And that's really a lot. What a lot of people.
00:50:02 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, so everyone. I mean, you spend more of your waking hours at work than anywhere else, so it's your family away from family.
00:50:10 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, legitimately is. And so many people hate, oh, you know where my work family that works out? Family? I go there to earn I'm like well you make your life a lot nicer if you like the people you work with let's be honest.
00:50:21 Joel Robinstein
Did you spend a lot of time with them?
00:50:23 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, and and I mean, that's the thing I have left jobs because I just didn't fit in with the people around me and they were nice people.
00:50:30 Dr Genevieve Hayes
It was just that I wasn't a good fit for them and it was often things like, you know, when I was a graduate, everyone else in the organisation was at least 10 years older than me and.
00:50:42 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Getting married and sending their kids off to school and there was just no one who was thinking the way I was.
00:50:48 Joel Robinstein
And it's good that you can see that as.
00:50:50 Joel Robinstein
Well, because I think a lot of people leave businesses going.
00:50:53 Joel Robinstein
Oh well, you know they're not like me and I don't like them in there. You know this that the other and all the rest of it, but just sometimes it just doesn't work out and that's OK.
00:51:02 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, and I moved on and now I'm sure if I met those same people I would probably have more to talk to them about because my life changed.
00:51:12 Joel Robinstein
Yeah 100%, I think people forget how important reporters in business and you know, some of our younger recruiters will will take our MD Simon or me along to a meeting because you know we can talk about being married or having a house to look after or whatever that they just can't relate to. And sometimes just that 5 minutes of conversation.
00:51:32 Joel Robinstein
In a business meeting, is is worth so much?
00:51:36 Joel Robinstein
So yeah, I mean it, you know it's it's. It's difficult. Like we said, individualised leadership. It's difficult to get an environment that works for everybody.
00:51:44 Joel Robinstein
So as long as you're open and and talk about it, then you you're probably more likely they're not going to.
00:51:49 Joel Robinstein
Retain your people at least.
00:51:52 Dr Genevieve Hayes
So we're getting close to time, but I have a few final questions. Is there anything on your radar in the AI data analytics space that you think is going to become important in the next three to five years?
00:52:06 Joel Robinstein
Again, I mean, I know a lot of the people that you have on on the podcast are more technical so.
00:52:11 Joel Robinstein
I'll try and.
00:52:12 Joel Robinstein
Leave those technical answers to to people who probably better suited to to answering it from.
00:52:18 Joel Robinstein
That sense as me.
00:52:19 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, you know what? What's on my radar as a recruiter? What's on my radar in terms of what I'm seeing is there definitely needs to be a broader?
00:52:29 Joel Robinstein
Understanding of how we attract overseas talent into Australia, you know?
00:52:35 Joel Robinstein
It's it's sporadic.
00:52:37 Joel Robinstein
Obviously it's highly affected by government change and this is this country.
00:52:41 Joel Robinstein
We know that when we have one government, it's really hard and we know when we have the other. It becomes a lot easier, but those changes do take time.
00:52:50 Joel Robinstein
But there's just no really simple and obvious roots when you're someone who's overseas as to how you start making those steps, you might have one company who's very willing to do it all.
00:53:01 Joel Robinstein
Figure it all out. Get you over here payloads. I wanted to get you over here and and and set you up, whereas most companies are scrambling around going. Oh, we don't even know.
00:53:09 Joel Robinstein
Where to start or whatever it may be, so I'd love it if there was a much more simplified, streamlined process where it's not just those companies who can afford it.
00:53:21 Joel Robinstein
Are able to tap into that talent. If you're a big bank and you have.
00:53:27 Joel Robinstein
Ernst and Young is your immigration consultants who just go bang and they've got someone on your door step then.
00:53:33 Joel Robinstein
That's great, right?
00:53:35 Joel Robinstein
So I'd love there to be some dialogue and and it wouldn't be me doing this, but you know, somewhere along the way with with government agencies with UM.
00:53:45 Joel Robinstein
With you know industry partners.
00:53:46 Joel Robinstein
As as as to.
00:53:48 Joel Robinstein
Figuring out a way where we can.
00:53:49 Joel Robinstein
Stand out to.
00:53:50 Joel Robinstein
The rest of the world, because the short of.
00:53:51 Joel Robinstein
It is we.
00:53:52 Joel Robinstein
Have a very tempting proposition. As a country, I'm an immigrant. I moved here for a reason. People want to move here.
00:53:59 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, you know, the amount of people who approach us as a recruitment agency from overseas saying hey, I'm interested in moving to Australia and I have to just simply say look I.
00:54:11 Joel Robinstein
I'm probably not the best place for you to start, right? You need to figure out your visa. You need to figure out you know how you.
00:54:15 Joel Robinstein
Gonna get your family here.
00:54:16 Joel Robinstein
And all the rest of it. So so that that's on my radar, because otherwise.
00:54:20 Joel Robinstein
You know what we see is the washing machine of people going round and round around, moving jobs, saying people, so that would be something that is on my radar, but I do not have a solution necessarily for her.
00:54:32 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And what final advice do you have to give? Organisations that are looking to maximise the value of their data and their data team?
00:54:40 Joel Robinstein
Don't rush.
00:54:41 Joel Robinstein
It don't Sprint before you can walk. A lot of people go straight to the end and they hire data scientists.
00:54:49 Joel Robinstein
First things first.
00:54:50 Joel Robinstein
Just get your data sorted, figure out your architecture, figure out your governance, figure out you know where it's going to sit and how you gonna access it and and and what levels.
00:54:58 Joel Robinstein
Of access everybody has.
00:55:00 Joel Robinstein
Start there and often a great place to start is.
00:55:03 Joel Robinstein
And I'm not.
00:55:04 Joel Robinstein
Just saying this because of who I'm talking.
00:55:05 Joel Robinstein
To is to.
00:55:06 Joel Robinstein
Start with the consultant. Get someone to come in.
00:55:08 Joel Robinstein
Map it out.
00:55:09 Joel Robinstein
Give you a little bit of advice and this is even if your company who maybe tried to do it and thinks they're doing it but is wondering why it's not working.
00:55:17 Joel Robinstein
Come take that step.
00:55:20 Joel Robinstein
And before you take that step forward, it's the well we live in our business. We always say sharpen the axe.
00:55:25 Joel Robinstein
It's, you know, spend 7 hours sharpening axe and one how were chopping?
00:55:28 Joel Robinstein
Down the tree rather than the other.
00:55:29 Joel Robinstein
Way around right? Start there and then. Don't expect Miracles day one.
00:55:36 Joel Robinstein
Uhm, understand and converse with your data teams as to what is realistic and what's possible. And if you're in the data team, understand the converse with business users as to how you can get something that's gonna make them understand it quickly.
00:55:52 Joel Robinstein
But then also how it's going to benefit them in the long.
00:55:53 Joel Robinstein
Term and this.
00:55:54 Joel Robinstein
Isn't just talking to the senior exec.
00:55:57 Joel Robinstein
Go talk to Dave in finance who is an analyst in finance? Go talk to the HR team and see what they want to get out of it and and just learn how it can be used.
00:56:11 Joel Robinstein
At that lower level, because I think once you.
00:56:13 Joel Robinstein
Start getting the the.
00:56:14 Joel Robinstein
The junior to mid level people in the business understanding how data can be used benefiting them, they're gonna start squawking about it and the leadership are gonna be like right call.
00:56:23 Joel Robinstein
This is actually really helping us day today, so it's a journey. It doesn't happen in six months and.
00:56:30 Joel Robinstein
And be patient.
00:56:33
And the final thing is.
00:56:34 Joel Robinstein
Invest the right amount of money. You can't do it on a shoestring budget Canyon. At the end of the day.
00:56:41 Joel Robinstein
So just be aware it takes time and that that I guess investment will come back.
00:56:46 Joel Robinstein
And help you in the long run.
00:56:48 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, and you will get a good return on investment from it.
00:56:51 Joel Robinstein
Definitely right and look just.
00:56:53 Joel Robinstein
Because it doesn't work with the first person, doesn't.
00:56:56 Joel Robinstein
Mean it won't work with the second person you hireright.
00:56:58 Joel Robinstein
We all make mistakes with hiring I.
00:56:59 Joel Robinstein
Mean I've made a.
00:56:59 Joel Robinstein
Million myself over the years decisions so you you know, you just need the right person and and.
00:57:06 Joel Robinstein
Give them the room.
00:57:07 Joel Robinstein
You know, if.
00:57:08 Joel Robinstein
You've hired ahead of data. Let them be the header data, and if they're saying we need to do this, then you like, OK, well, you're the expert.
00:57:14 Joel Robinstein
Let's do it right. Yeah, don't fight it.
00:57:17 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, that's good advice.
00:57:20 Dr Genevieve Hayes
So for listeners who want to learn more about about you, how can they get in contact?
00:57:26 Joel Robinstein
Well, being a recruiter the easiest way is always just hitting up on LinkedIn, right? So myself I chucked out a couple of other names in my team. There's a 2 ladies Emily Notre and Lauren Allard who look after two of our teams who are.
00:57:41 Joel Robinstein
Exceptional recruiters and people that would be able to help both organisations looking to hire but also candidates looking for a role.
00:57:48 Joel Robinstein
We also are quite active in the events and meetups space. Obviously the podcasts keeping up with data that you mentioned at the beginning, which is great, but we we've run and facilitated the women in data network in Sydney.
00:58:01 Joel Robinstein
For the last seven years, so we've actually got an event on Thursday.
00:58:04 Joel Robinstein
I'm about behavioural analytics which is quite cool and and we also run data jams with a lot of sporting.
00:58:11 Joel Robinstein
Yeah, organisations here in Australia and we've got one with.
00:58:14 Joel Robinstein
Golf Australia on Friday, where we.
00:58:16 Joel Robinstein
Got the 8 finalist teams from the likes of Quantum and KPMG presenting back so plenty of ways to interact but the most simple and easy is to just grab me on LinkedIn.
00:58:26 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And I'll put a link to your LinkedIn page.
00:58:28 Dr Genevieve Hayes
In the show notes.
00:58:29 Joel Robinstein
Smashing and thanks for having me on as well the flu by so I really enjoyed that conversation.
00:58:35 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Oh yeah, I had plenty of things I wanted to ask but just didn't have time to ask.
00:58:38 Joel Robinstein
I know it's the.
00:58:39 Joel Robinstein
Same as when we do our podcast every.
00:58:40 Joel Robinstein
Time like we.
00:58:41 Joel Robinstein
Could do this for three hours, but I.
00:58:43 Joel Robinstein
Just don't think.
00:58:43 Joel Robinstein
Everyone going to still be listening by the end of it.
00:58:45 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, yeah, that's why I was thinking. I was looking at the clock and it's like yeah I could keep going for another half hour.
00:58:50 Dr Genevieve Hayes
Yeah, but that wouldn't be fair on the listeners.
00:58:52 Joel Robinstein
No exactly so.
00:58:54 Joel Robinstein
So yeah, in.
00:58:54 Joel Robinstein
Either way, thank you very much for for having me on and and give him the platform as well.
00:58:58 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And thanks very much for joining me.
00:59:00 Joel Robinstein
No worries.
00:59:02 Dr Genevieve Hayes
And for those in the audience. But thank you for listening.
00:59:05 Dr Genevieve Hayes
I'm doctor Genevieve Hayes and this has been value driven data science brought to you by Genevieve Hayes Consulting.